Pleasure Peddling Gurus

Pleasure Peddling Gurus
Submitted by D. Madhusudhana Rao

“Anything you experience based on knowledge is an illusion.”
– UG Krishnamurti

“Anything you experience based on knowledge is an illusion”
– UG Krishnamurti
Which means, our pleasures, our relationships, our sorrow, our beliefs, our spiritual experiences etc etc all are based on knowledge and hence illusory?

My God!

But unlike UG, we are trapped in this web of illusions and there seems no way out and no light at the end of the tunnel?

So what next? What lies ahead?

I think we cannot do anything but live in illusion, enjoy this illusion and die in illusion!

UG freed himself from the illusion creating mechanism but was sure that he cannot help in any way to lead us out of the illusion.

But I must thank UG for enlightening us by saying that we cannot but live in this illusion forever and honestly accepting the truth that there is no way out in contrast to the pleasure peddling gurus who promise “freedom” through meditation, passive awareness and radical transformation and etc.

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10 Responses to Pleasure Peddling Gurus

  1. Tej says:

    “But I must thank UG for enlightening us by saying that we cannot but live in this illusion forever”

    Looks like Madhu has resigned to hopelessness, accepting what UG says without daring to question it.

    “Anything you experience based on knowledge is an illusion.”

    Raw sensory input is not based on knowledge – so that means it is real. What UG means is that the ‘thinker’ is not real and hence it’s experiences are an illusion. This is coming to be accepted even by scientists like Susan Blackmore (see selfplex).

    Human society has made a value judgement that meditation has its benefits (it does, even in this ‘illusory’ world). Your value judgement is that not meditating is wisdom. Either POV is perfectly OK.

    Another thing is that UG ideas and opinions have changed gradually since his ‘calamity’. In the talks immediately after 13 august 1967, he goes on about how this is right way to live. When asked how the calamity was triggered he said “KRISHNAMURTI was describing the problem with tremendous clarity”.

    Over the years his stance hardened until finally you have to admit he sort of became an angry old man. Perhaps it’s just that the personality structure with its old memories, habits, choice phrases remains even after the ‘wall’ has broken.

  2. Darkness says:

    “Raw sensory input is not based on knowledge – so that means it is real….”

    You make an interesting point. But, the word “real” itself is another conception of language, hence thought. That something is real or unreal is limited to the definitions of those words.

    If, as apparently happened to UG, the “thinker” has somehow biologically (assuming that thoughts have a biological basis in our bodies)put an end to his/her mechanical responses to stimuli, then whether there is sensory perception or even stimuli is (IMHO) a moot point.

    Perception exists because of a response( affirmative, negative or indifferent). If there is no response, then it is questionable if there is such a thing called perception. UG has claimed that He doesn’t even know what he is looking at till there is a need. The need kicks in his memory mechanism, which is nothing but the world of language and thought; the world of stimuli and response.

    You are trying to imply an objective world outside, A “real” world, But, this world is joined at the hip to the world of language and thought. If language and thought implode, then what is left, if anything is left at all, is something imponderable. The Old man (UG) was perhaps right when he said that thought as an instrument is useless in answering the philosophical questions of existence.

  3. Tej says:

    @Darkness

    “But, the word “real” itself is another conception of language, hence thought.”

    If UG can make pronouncements on what is illusory, it is very much valid to ask – what then is real? We need to use words, thoughts and language to understand what UG is saying. Of course, words are symbols, map is not the territory, etc but if we are to listen to UG at all, we have to use words.

    Surely UG had perceptions, how else could he function so effectively in the world. My guess is that stimuli would have caused NCC in his brain but he broke the chain that would lead automatically to recognition. He had non verbal awareness(primary consciousness) and volitional recognition! His brain should have been investigated scientifically. 🙂

  4. sulochanosho says:

    @Tej
    @Darkness

    Thanks for your clarity-focused views. There you throw more light to penetrate.

    “His brain should have been investigated scientifically.”

    If ‘am correct, I actually heard UG himself saying ‘the possiblity of scientists taking his brain to investigate, after his death’, in one of his informal chit-chat sessions in Bangalore (at Chandrasekhar’s residence), may be during his last visit or last but one visit to Bangalore. But that didn’t happen that way.

  5. Madhu says:

    I am not saying that my headache or toothache as something of illusory feeling !!!!!!!!!

    The nervous system is dealing with the problem. When I try to describe that ache in terms of the “knowledge of the pain” then what I am feeling is NOT what actually it ‘IS’ (hence it must be illusory).

    The raw sensory images …………???

    The word creates object and is imposed on that raw sensory image.

  6. Jake Tankard says:

    Whatever you do next, don’t you go to: http: //swamiraj.wordpress.com/ Don’t you do it!

  7. Darkness says:

    “The word creates object and is imposed on that raw sensory image…”

    You make a good point. Similar physiological states of the body can lead to subjective experiences: The same physiological state can be interpreted by people differently.

    We are mostly slapping words to changes in our body that are reactions to stimuli. Fear, Anger, lust are all words applied to physiological states. We interpret and classify our physiological states.

    What is real, indeed.

    There was an interesting article recently in the NY times about anxiety. The article makes a similar point as above.

    If you are interested:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/04/magazine/04anxiety-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

  8. sulochanosho says:

    I made a fast run thru of the article there on the above link:
    Understanding the Anxious Mind
    By ROBIN MARANTZ HENIG
    Published: New York Times, September 29, 2009

    It gives a good account of revelation. Eventhough it is a study on mind, more physiology lines are there. We need to do drop many of our so called churned out orchestrated holy sermons as well as over-tracked good old solid science-churned out researches or knowledge too, it seems. New things to emerge, demolishing the past knowledge completely. Life is more and for ever: ‘now and new.’

    Many times we are trapped in our own ‘languaging’ net – and our physiology never listens to it.

  9. I only see an experience or no experience. Whether one labels it as experience or illusion or unreal, I do not see any difference. One is still acknowledging the existence of it.

    “But unlike UG, we are trapped in this web of illusions and there seems no way out and no light at the end of the tunnel?”

    If we name our experiences as illusions, what is wrong with those illusions? Why one wants to be free of these illusions? Just because it has been labelled as illusion??

    “What UG means is that the ‘thinker’ is not real and hence it’s experiences are an illusion”

    What does it mean by thinker is not real? Does that mean thinker exists but it is not real? or Does that mean thinker does not exist? If thinker or observer does not exist where do the experiences come from?
    And who is it that is labelling those experiences as illusions?

    I will rest here.

  10. Who decides what is “real” and what is illusion? Are dreams an illusion? Sometimes, they seem more real than the waking dream…

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