Greed. You preach against greed. I’m sorry to point out this to you, because you give discourses on how to be free from greed. Are you free from greed? No. Do you want to be free from greed?
Q: No [Laughter]
UG: No. Why the hell are you asking to begin with? I am sorry to spotlight you and put you in that spotlight. So you tell me. I don’t know if there is such thing as greed. If there is a greed it is operating here in this moment in you. I don’t like to use that word bastard, but you are the greediest bastard in this moment. I am using this only to drive it home for you. So you think that I have ‘something’, which you want. If there is money you can rob a bank and take the money. There is something there. But here, it is your ‘assumption’ that I have something, that I am functioning differently, that I am this, that and the other. You want to be like me. If that is not greed, what else is it? She is laughing.
Q: She knows I’m greedy. [Laughter]
UG: When are you going to be free from greed? When are you going to say, “I’m
greediest man”? Right? When are you going to be free from greed? When? Tell me.
UG: It is in operation here. The solution for the greed, if at all you are interested in freeing yourself from greed, is to allow that greed to fill the whole of your being. Every cell in your body, everything in that body should vibrate with that greed. By wanting to be free from greed, for whatever reason you want to be free from greed, you are destroying the possibility of freeing yourself from greed. Through greed you’ll be free from greed. Are you ready to accept it? It is the selfishness that will free you from selfishness, and not the preaching or practice of selfishness.
UG: Those Zen bastards! They institutionalized meditation. Jokers! I was never attracted to Zen masters. Never! Because they were all the followers of Buddha and what Buddhism tried to preach to the world. So reject it. You all are them! They institutionalized the whole thing. They invented the techniques of meditation.
Q: The Hindus say that the Upanishads are much superior.
UG: Who? They have to because they are Indian.
Q: At least the Upanishads have not institutionalized those things.
UG: They created these metaphysics, the intellectuals. And what you find in Upanishads is not the people whom they are talking about, but the aspirations of those people who ‘want’ to be that state. That’s why Buddha had too much intellectual nonsense. That fellow didn’t have the guts, sir, to go to the end. And when he had this experience he said, as long as there is a single soul imprisoned in the veil of illusion I refuse to enter the gates of Nirvana. He never entered the gates of Nirvana – he refused for the sake of mankind; like the politicians talking of mankind, humanity, you know? And then for the first time in the history of mankind he introduced the element of conversion, proselytization. He created a sangha- he moved from place to place, followed by all these people, and he wouldn’t allow women to join his order for a long time. There were a lot of protestations. Finally he relented and admitted them also. Then came along – this is my reading of history, take it or leave it – an Ashoka, the King, and he used that as an instrument of power, very forcibly in this country. But then Jainism spread in the South, not Buddhism. That’s why you have so many Jain temples. The place where I grew up is called “the place of temples”. Not Buddhist temples, but Jain monasteries. A lot of prostitutes lived there, along with of course…they go together: prostitutes and spiritual teachers. It is not a religion.
Q: But what is the story that he refused to enter paradise?
UG: He didn’t have the guts. He stopped with some pretty little mystical experience, like anybody else. Like all these gurus you have in the market place. Even Ramana Maharishi stopped there. All of them. That prevents the possibility of these people coming out with something original. So they have to rely upon the authority of the scriptures, and then they interpret. How can a fellow that has written four volumes talk of enlightenment? Tell me. And claim that he is an enlightened man? He cannot do that. It’s a sales speech. They sell that stuff to the poor people. There is authority for them. The filthy word using – enlightenment. Sorry, sir.
Q: Buddha had authority?
UG: No, no, not at all. It was all political, the man, the King Ashoka. Otherwise, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam would have remained small cults. They became the instruments of power. They forced…of course, they didn’t use violence here in this country, but when Buddhism spread to Japan, particularly, the monasteries maintained armies – trained armies – and supplied them to the rival kings. That’s a trait of holiness. Sanyasins never existed in India. It is difficult to understand because you are all sanyasins. [Laughter]. Because you’ve made a business out of that.
Q: Do you say that Buddha is not at all original?
UG: Not at all. He pretended like J. Krishnamurti – original – by not using any authority that existed before. Because that is what the Upanishads said: it is an authority of its own, so I am “pramanya”, I think. Why should I quote that nonsense? I must wash my mouth. [Laughter]
Q: Buddha is very original.
UG: It is all intellectual nonsense. Not original, all saints do that, what did he do? No, sir. The monasteries supplied armies to the rival kings. The founder of Zen, the first fellow who went there, Bodhidharma, called Buddha a barbarian, and said that Buddhist teachings are nothing but toilet paper. He had the guts to say that in the 7th century! He is quoted there.
Q: The emperor asked him, what is the holy teaching of the Buddha? And he said, no holiness, just…
UG: Kill him, he said. If you meet Buddha kill him. Well, anyway, why do you need a Buddha? It’s the same as Christianity, the conversion – with violence! You may say Buddhism is not violent – Indians are cowards. You swallow anything! Hinduism is not a religion at all like Judaism. It’s social, political, economic, a lot of things put together. It’s just a way of life and way of thinking, nothing else. That is culture. It is not art, beauty, poetry, music – that is not culture. So that is part of your thinking. You think that you are superior to me because you are a swami. What have you renounced? You have not renounced anything. And the second thing is, they pick up a new job, a new language, use that and feel great.T that’s all. Use those words, Krishnamurti lingo.
“A truly religious person does not want anything for himself [laughter], but it is the responsibility of you all [laughter] to see that my teaching is ‘the’ teaching, and should be preserved for posterity in its pristine purity. So give liberally to my cause.” [Laughter]
Q: He uttered that?
UG: Sure, he said “cause”. You see, he was brought up in poor conditions. He didn’t have everything in his life. Here it is the other way around. Buddha was born a king. Anything I wanted I could have had. Anything, anything in the world, I has as a matter of fact, everything that one could reasonably ask for. If I wanted to buy a Rolls-Royce car, just in a jiffy…by writing a check on the Imperial Bank of India I could buy, so you see. Money was not, in that sense, a primary preoccupation. That is not my interest. See, I knew how you could make money. If I decided myself to money I would have been the world’s richest man – world’s richest! All the billionaires in America would be insignificant. That was not my interest. My only interest was to be certain that Buddha was a conman. These people around you, the claimants, are not really the genuine people. There is a dichotomy in their lives – what they said and what…
Some More Excerpts:
The fact of the matter is that when once you have everything that you can reasonably ask for in this world, when all the material needs are taken care of naturally the question arises, “Is that all?” And once you pose that question to yourself – “Is that all?” – a tremendous market for this kind of a business is created: a holy business. And they are exploiting the gullibility and credibility of people, not helping them to resolve the basic problem, the human problem. So you don’t want to be a normal person, you don’t want to be an ordinary person. That is really the problem. It’s the most difficult thing is to be an ordinary person. Culture demands that you must be something other than what you are. That has set in momentum this tremendous, powerful movement of thought which demands that you should be something other than what you are.
Every gland in my body, every cell in my body, has undergone a radical mutation. Why do I use the word mutation? Because I can’t think of a more appropriate word. Every gland has undergone a transformation because it seems to be functioning in a different way. The brain waves are incredible, and I would very much like to have the opportunity to use a brain wave machine. The electricity that goes out of my body is tremendous since there is no point inside of me. There is no space for me at all. Then it expands. The electricity that is generated in this body goes to the end of the universe, affecting the whole thing. When I come out of this state, whatever you call it, the whole body is filled with peace. It’s some kind of a substance like a white substance. The whole body is filled with this white substance. You can look at it and it shines like a phosphoresce. It’s the whole body.
About the Book:
‘Thought Is Dead’ is a unique selection of mostly unpublished and rare transcripts of U.G. Krishnamurti in dialogue, including a particularly rare discussion with renowned physicist David Bohm. U.G. explains how our desire for spiritual enlightenment is a greed, like any other, and that we are operating as a complex set of machinery. In addition U.G. details, in a step-by-step account, the mysterious process by which his consciousness underwent a complete transformation.
About the Author:
Uppaluri Gopala Krishnamurti (July 9, 1918 – March 22, 2007), known as U.G. Krishnamurti, or just U.G., was an Indian sage who spoke of his enlightenment openly. Although necessary for day to day functioning of the individual, in terms of the Ultimate Reality or Truth he rejected the very basis of thought and in doing so negated all systems of thought and knowledge in reference to It.
Thought is Dead: Moving Beyond Spiritual Materialism
By UG Krishnamurti
Paperback: 180 pages
Publisher: CreateSpace (July 31, 2010)
This Book’s Link on Amazon
The great debunker (UG) of any belief system talks with Luc Sala in
Amsterdam about “The black hole of (any) belief”, from disease to divinity. UG died 22 march 2007. A critical interview.
His name was Chakravarti Ananthachar. As his name indicates, he was born in a Vaishnava family which followed the tradition of Vishistadvaita (qualified nondualism) taught by Sri Ramanujacharya. Although Mr. Ananantachar was profound scholar in Sankrit grammar and logic and an authority on Ramanajacharya’s philosophy, he was also a great admirer of Sankara and his Advaita philosophy. He lectures on Sankara’s Advaita Vedanta always drew large crowds and earned him a good standing in the spiritual circles of Bangalore. That is how several of my friends got to know of him. Once upon a time, my friend Krishnamurthy was very close to him and was attending his lectures almost every day.
One day in June 1998, our friend Venkata Chalapati spoke about UG to Anantachar describing UG as a “Jivanmukta”. Anantachar was impressed and expressed his interest in meeting UG. But UG dissuaded Venkat Chalapati: “Why do you want to bring him? You say that he is a scholar and professional speaker. Such people have an investment in the tradition they believe in. How can he listen to me?” But Venkat Chalapati’s eagerness prevailed.
At last, on Sunday June 21 1998, Anantachar walked into Major’s Farm house to meet UG. He was accompanied by Venkat Chalapati and Krishnamurthy.
UG respectfully offered a seat next to him on the sofa. Some of us on the floor and some on the available chairs. I wrote down the points of discussion between UG and Anantachar. Here is the text of the conversation that took place on that bright sunny afternoon.
Anantachar introduced himself as a theoretical Vedanta exponent, and a mere speaker and scholar on matters of Vedanta. He started his conversation with UG saying, “Those who are in the highest spiritual state are said to be in possession of several powers.”
UG made no comment.
Anantachar: Don’t you think that through meditation one can achieve great heights in spiritual life?
UG: Meditation should not be given any importance at all. That’s my feeling.
Anantachar: Then what shall we do?
UG: Nothing; do nothing.
Anantachar: [Smiling] In that case everyone becomes a yogi.
UG: I am not a yogi.
Anantachar: Anyway sir, you are a widely travelled person. Don’t you think it is possible to bring out a universal philosophy to end all conflicts?
UG: Universal philosophy as such doesn’t exist except as an idea. That goal has created the actual problem.
Anantachar: Do you mean to say that a universal life doesn’t exist? All the masters of all religions talked of the oneness of life.
UG: You are an expression of that life. The mosquito that is sucking your blood is another expression of that life. The garden slug out there is another expression. The problem is we want to understand life. We try to understand life. We try to understand. That attempt is bound to create conflict.
Anantachar: Advaita Vedanta talks about that life as anivachaniya, indefinable.
UG: In that case, why should they talk about it? [Now UG’s tone got sharper.] If there is anything as the “beyond”, it can never be captured, contained or given expression to. How can they describe it as bliss, beatitude and all that nonsense? If they know that it is anivarchaniya, they should have stopped right there.
Anantachar: As philosophers they wanted to postulate…
UG: What good is that to you sir? Philosophers as I know are lovers of wisdom. That’s what they are. Philosophy only helps to sharpen the intellect.
Anantachar: Sir, how to determine whether a man is wise or not?
UG: You have no way of knowing.
Anantachar: Sankara describes the characteristics of an enlightened man. Even in the Gita it is said…
UG: They are all empty words and empty phrases, sir! They mean nothing. What’s the use of all those words? You haven’t helped you. You are still asking the same question.
Everybody laughs. Anantachar is visibly shaken. He asks for a cup of water and empties two cups, one after the other.]
Anantachar: We have to use words to communicate with each other.
UG: I say and maintain that no communication is possible and none is necessary.
Anantachar: But we have no other way to wisdom.
UG: Why are we not ready to accept that “wisdom” is a real block?
Anantachar looks the people around helplessly. He turns to Venkata Chalapti and says “I can’t understand what he is saying.” He then turns to UG.
Anantachar: You have gone a little above my head. I am not able to follow you. I have worked for several years academically…
UG: But I am an illiterate…
Anantachar: No. No. I can’t agree. You are an enlightened person. Only a few are gifted to be enlightened. An enlightened person is above everything. In my opinion, when a man forgets all his surrounding in the contemplation of the undivided Self, that state, according to Sankara, is the “Brahmi State”. My practice of meditation is very poor. I haven’t done any sadhana. But I want to. I am only a Jnanamaargi.
UG: I am not a scholar like you. But I studied Advaita philosophy. Prof. Mahadevan was our teacher of Advaita philosophy.
Anantachar: Sir, how can we understand the world?
UG: There is no need to understand the world.
Anantachar: Otherwise, how can we be in contact with the world?
UG: Do you think you are really in contact withy anything? Do you think you are looking at that man? Do you think you have ever looked at your wife even once? If you once looked at your wife, that would be the end of the whole relationship. You look at everything through the knowledge you have. It’s the knowledge about the things around that creates the world for you. You can not experience anything that you do not know. In that sense I say and maintain that there is no such thing as new experience at all. How can you have contact with the world?
Anantachar: As long as we breathe and live in this world we keep the contact.
UG: No, on no level can you contact anything.
[Ananatachar was disturbed with the rise in UG’s voice. He became fidgety in his seat next to UG. He asked for more water and Mohan gives him some.]
Mohan: [to Anantachar] Do you accept what he is saying, sir?
UG: How can he say anything? He is not in a position to say.
Anantachar started quoting the Mandukya Upanishad. “There is Para wisdom and there is Apara wisdom. When once you renounce Vritti Gnana, then Swarupa Jnana dawns on you. Ultimately, upasantoyam atma, as the instructions in the Mandukya indicate.”
At this point, UG suddenly flared up. He burst out saying that Mandukya Upanishad does not even have as much worth as toilet paper. He called Sankara a bastard for writing commentaries on Upanishads. He started his tirade on Gowdapada for writing the karika to Mandukya and called him also a bastard.
This was too much for Anantachar. He started trembling with anger. He could no longer sit in a composed manner. Mohan was trying to calm him down handing him more cups of water. “Drink more water sir, and sit comfortably,” Mohan told him.
Anantachar: [In an agitated voice, looking at the people around]. “This is too much, sir. He uses such uncivilised terminology. How can he call Sankar a bastard? How can an enlightened person use such foul language?”
Then UG again flared up.
UG: Yes, I shall maintain Sankara was a bastard! Mandukya is shit! It is his shit that is coming out of your mouth. What do you have to say? That is my question. Don’t repeat Sankara, Gowdapada and all that nonsense. You are just repeating. A tape recorder does a better job than you. What you say, does it operate in your life? You can teach fools from the platform and make a living. I have no objection. But it has not touched you. How can anybody describe that state a love and bliss? Love divides and separates. There is already division. How can there be love?
Anantachar stood up. He couldn’t take it anymore. He said, “I came here hoping to see an enlightened person. I never expected I would be meeting such a negative person instead.”
UG countered immediately saying, “You came to the wrong man. You can go now.”
Anantachar folded his hands as a mark of respect and walked out of the room.
In the height and heat of his flared up conversations with people around him, UG suddenly breaks a pause by waking up Robert Carr, calling him, ‘Bob, come on!’ UG’s pausing orbalming bell in between his heated conversations with people around was his favourite call: ‘Bob!’ Yes, the other day (on 22 Mar 2010) the admirers and friends of UG from India and other parts of the world gathered at Chandrasekhar’s residence or rather ‘UG place’, in Bangalore. There I glanced at this guy – this Bob (Robert Carr) is really a ‘live bomb’, still living or looking like a 16 or 17 even in his 70s or more – one of the closest associates of UG from the US, now happily batting or living in Mumbai, it seems. At last Bob (Robert Carr) has paid a rich tribute to his ‘barking master’ by bringing out a DVD that contains mind-shattering conversations with UG Krishnamurti, which got released on this occasion with much applause.
In 1995, UG spoke with a variety of spiritual seekers, self-styled gurus, teachers and just ordinary people from all over the world. The collection of nineteen interviews presented in this DVD offers the viewer a unique look into UG’s insights into life and living. They have been edited in Mumbai, India in 2009.
And a UG quote:
‘Thought is the self-protecting and fascist in nature, and it will use every trick under the sun to give momentum to its own continuity. Thought controls, moulds and shapes our ideas and actions. Thought is not the instrument to help us live in harmony with life around us. That is why we create all these ecological problems such as pollution, possibly destroying ourselves with the destructive weapons that we have invented.’
Over the past twenty years, several persons have worked selflessly and silently to record UG’s conversations with people in different parts of the world. I wish to thank the following friends: The Late Terry New Land, Raj Mehta, Julie Thayer, Andy Neddermeyer, Narayana Moorty, Kunal Sharma, Abhishek Sharma, Ghanashyam (Sam), Mahesh Bhatt and Paul Arms for their help in this production. The recording sessions were unrehearsed and spontaneous, resulting in a reflection of UG’s natural state.
Produced and directed by Robert Carr
Editing and video enhancement by Abhishek Sharma
A new book titled Stopped in our Tracks – Second Series by K Chandrasekhar also got released on this occasion.
Mahesh Bhatt’s ‘foreword’ to this book:
Whether it is happy or unhappy, hopeful or devastating, the ending brings the story to what it itself is … the inevitable, the complete end.
On a quiet afternoon of March 14, 2007, in Vallecrosia, a quaint town in Italy, on the coast of the Mediterranean, Babu Chandrsekhar’s guiding light and the love of life, UG Krishnamurti, shouted out an order, “Leave now and get on with your life,’ said the light. “I want to die the way I lived … all alone, with no one looking over me.”
Babu Chndrasekhar was devastated, but he has also sensed that the end was near. Thus, he began the process of wrenching himself away from his own heartbet. He prepared himself to break away from someone with whom he had spent more than three intense decades of his life, and who was not only the basis of his very existence but was also enshrined in his heart.
I still remember vivdly what Babu did after hearing UG’s command. He broke into Sanskrit shlokas, sat down at UG’s feet. Then touchng his feet, Babu prostrated his entire being before him as only a true devotee or lover would do. When he got up he looked closely at UG as if he were absorbing him completely in that one long look. Then turning his heel, Babu left the room where his master lived, never to return again.
As I led Babu out of the villa, where UG spent his last days, I can clerly recall the words I spoke to him, “This is death Babu, the end of your love story …” but little did I know that a love story like theirs never ends. I am not sure why, but whenever I think of the love story of Babu and UG I am reminded of Abu Bakr and Prophet Mohammed.
The story goes that when Abu Bakr saw the Prophet of God lying dead, he uncovered the mantle of the Yamani cloth that covered the Prophet’s face and, kissing his forehead, said, “You are dearer than my father and mother. You have tasted the death which God had decreed, but oh Mohammed, a second death will never overtake you. You will never die again.” And how right he was, because the emptiness which was created in the life of Abu Bakr with the passing away of his Master, could only be filled with the evangelistic fervour with which he went about spreading his word.
(1) A Book on UG in Bengali by Dr Guha, a close associate of UG.
(2) Hindi version book of Mahesh Bhatt’s ‘A Taste of Life’
(3) Another book got released on this occasion: ‘Self Realization: With Special Reference to UG’ by Mr. Satya Simha*. [Note:* The late Satya Simha had in fact been doing the Ph.D. on UG from Mysore University, and had worked half way till his (Satya Simha) untimely death that happened in 2008; so the present book is the outcome of the works he had done in this regard, not necessarily the completed work, and is brought posthumously.]
(4) The German Book of UG’s ‘Mind is A Myth’, tranaslated by Daniel (Note: A copy of this new book was sent all the way from Germany to K. Chandrasekhar just to get released on this unique occasion.)
Another interesting happening is that Mukunda Rao has taken great pains and drilling works to dig into the tapes of UG conversations (of 90 plus hours duration altogether) that were for decades remained stranded or locked up with some UG friends. Now the tapes got unlocked and thanks to Mr. K. Chandrasekhar’s concern and siren, Mukunda Rao has successfully completed the ‘transcription’ work of these rare UG tapes recorded some where down the lines and the recorded words of UG in those tapes have gone into a metamorphic process in the unbiased scholastic hands of Mukunda Rao and soon the resultant book titled, ‘The Biology of Enlightenment’ may hit the lights of the world now. May more and more UG ghosts haunt the world there!